Calling all ex CA18 & SR20 engine build owners

[RAW]

The S12 chassis in Japan was badged as both a Silvia and a Gazelle. The Gazelle was produced so that Nissan's different dealership networks in Japan could all carry the Silvia. There are minor cosmetic differences. Both the S110 and S12 Silvias have a Gazelle counterpart. The S12 Silvia in Japan was available in a fastback as a basic model only, but the S12 Gazelle in Japan was strictly a fastback, available in regular, RS and RS-X variants, as was the Silvia notchback. The RS was equipped with the 2.0L DOHC "FJ" engine(FJ20E), while the RS-X was equipped with the same engine in a turbocharged version (FJ20ET). In 1987 Nissan discontinued to put in the FJ Series engine and installed the updated version of the older CA, with dual cams and a bigger turbocharger -- the CA18DET.

Man, that FJ20 is a mean little basted, only 140kw odd stock but its crank could hold 600hp+! loads of guys used them in their light weight racers

160kw at stock boost? either your dyno was jippo'd or your car wasnt running stock boost (maybe not to your knowlege), 35kw/46hp is impossible from an exhaust and filter only to an other wise untouched CA18DET or SR20... I have probably dyno'd 150+ CA18 and SR20's on our dynojet 248HS I used in the US, a SR or CA swapped S13 used to pick up 30 to 35hp max! out of exhaust and intake only, and that was with top end off shelf systems and intakes.

Ohh and if you think bang for buck is RB wait till you try it and realise to get an RB25 in your Sbody and to have everything working CORRECTLY will set you back more than building a 300kw SR20... 300kw SR20 will give a stock RB25 a hiding like no other, start modding that RB and you better have just robbed a bank.

[Doctor G]

160kw at stock boost? either your dyno was jippo'd or your car wasnt running stock boost, 35kw/46hp is impossible from an exhaust and filter only to an other wise untouched CA18DET or SR20... I have probably dyno'd 150+ CA18 and SR20's on our dynojet 248HS I used in the US, a SR or CA swapped S13 used to pick up 30 to 35hp max! out of exhaust and intake only, and that was with top end off shelf systems and intakes.

Ohh and if you think bang for buck is RB wait till you try it and realise to get an RB25 in your Sbody and to have everything working CORRECTLY will set you back more than building a 300kw SR20... 300kw SR20 will give a stock RB25 a hiding like no other, start modding that RB and you better have just robbed a bank.

Bang for buck and reliability the RB is definitely a better option than the SR. I know rezlo charges A LOT for these swaps, but it can be done much cheaper if you DIY it. Show me how a 300kw SR is cheaper than a RB? And factor in reliability as well.

As for the CA. Still have the dyno chart somewhere. Was done at snails dyno, where enough dyno days have been done now to rule out any serious inconsistancies... My car boosts 0.6-0.65 under high load. It runs away from every focus ST I've come accross on the road so far so I doubt the power is less than I stated. 15sec 1.4 mile on street tyres, full interior, first time at track, 35 degree temp etc etc. (Nothing spectacular but makes sense for the quoted power figure)

[RAW]

You know what I charge? really? i bet you I charge less to build a motor once that what most of you have spend doing it DIY multiple times to still get mediocure results.

So come, you now the expert at SR and RB's (considering you own neither, to boot you dont actualy own a powerful Sbody) why dont you tell me how much it cost to DIY fit an RB and what needs to be done to make 300kw vs what needs to be done to an SR to make similar power, because i GARANTEE you the SR20 is cheaper and more reliable built at 300kw than a stock RB25.

You guys should realy start trying to understand that what you read on webforums and what the real world does/cost is two very different things.

Realy makes me wonder, you guys cry that people like hennie and I dont help you, then when we do you talk shit like we dont know what we are talking about? Dont any of you realise that what I am saying it for the benefit (both power and financial) to anyone that is actualy planning to make any decent form of power?

[Doctor G]

You know what I charge? really? i bet you I charge less to build a motor once that what most of you have spend doing it DIY multiple times to still get mediocure results.

So come, you now the expert at SR and RB's (considering you own neither, to boot you dont actualy own a powerful Sbody) why dont you tell me how much it cost to DIY fit an RB and what needs to be done to make 300kw vs what needs to be done to an SR to make similar power, because i GARANTEE you the SR20 is cheaper and more reliable built at 300kw than a stock RB25.

You guys should realy start trying to understand that what you read on webforums and what the real world does/cost is two very different things.

Realy makes me wonder, you guys cry that people like hennie and I dont help you, then when we do you talk shit like we dont know what we are talking about? Dont any of you realise that what I am saying it for the benefit (both power and financial) to anyone that is actualy planning to make any decent form of power?

I guess it's not what you say, but sometimes how you say it then huh?

Especially that quirp about me not owning a fast s chassis. So because my car isn't fast enough suddenly I'm an imbesel and don't know left from right? It's that kind of attitude that makes people not respect your opinions/advice.

People do to their cars what they want, and with the budget at their disposal. Would you do a std rb swap for a guy who asked? My guess is no. You're only interested if the guy is willing to spend R50k and buy the best parts on the market right?

Anyways, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I asked you a question and you responded with the same question (and some remarks). If you really wanted to be helpful you'd have answered it.

[RAW]

You know what I charge? really? i bet you I charge less to build a motor once that what most of you have spend doing it DIY multiple times to still get mediocure results.

So come, you now the expert at SR and RB's (considering you own neither, to boot you dont actualy own a powerful Sbody) why dont you tell me how much it cost to DIY fit an RB and what needs to be done to make 300kw vs what needs to be done to an SR to make similar power, because i GARANTEE you the SR20 is cheaper and more reliable built at 300kw than a stock RB25.

You guys should realy start trying to understand that what you read on webforums and what the real world does/cost is two very different things.

Realy makes me wonder, you guys cry that people like hennie and I dont help you, then when we do you talk shit like we dont know what we are talking about? Dont any of you realise that what I am saying it for the benefit (both power and financial) to anyone that is actualy planning to make any decent form of power?

I guess it's not what you say, but sometimes how you say it then huh?

Especially that quirp about me not owning a fast s chassis. So because my car isn't fast enough suddenly I'm an imbesel and don't know left from right? It's that kind of attitude that makes people not respect your opinions/advice.

People do to their cars what they want, and with the budget at their disposal. Would you do a std rb swap for a guy who asked? My guess is no. You're only interested if the guy is willing to spend R50k and buy the best parts on the market right?

Anyways, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I asked you a question and you responded with the same question (and some remarks). If you really wanted to be helpful you'd have answered it.

Oii, I called you an expert, I never said your an imbesel! How many DR. of this or that do you know who have absolutely no experience? become an engineer and youll meet MANY, doesnt mean they dumb... just means they shouldnt read as much and should try do what they preach as often its fairly different.

I am booked up for the next 19 months with people with big budgets, dont see the point in low budget considering I build cars as a hobby not a living, but yes i have actualy done a few near stock rebuilds in the last year or two... and yes I use good parts because I dont see the point in risking a whole motor to use crap quality parts that save you a few hundred here or there.

And actualy I did answer your question, I said CA18 is fine for lower power, SR20 is a better all rounder and RB's are crap expencive...

We done?

[RAW]

Here is a nice way of looking at it for those that dont understand what I say:

CA18DET - Great for anything up to 200kw

SR20DET - Great for anything up to 400kw

RB - Great for anything over 400kw

CA18 can make 200KW STREATCHED, weakest parts is the HG then Pistons, with forged bits your weakest part is then the rods followed by the crank which fails usualy fairly easy, if you plan to make over 250kw go SR20, its far cheaper

SR20 can make 240kw with basic upgrades, with head gasket and ARP's you can make 280kw, with a decent rebuild 400kw is not an un common power level that can be had with a fair share of reliability.

RB, be prepared to pay big if you want it to run properly in your Sbody, RB is only good to 340kw with lots of bolt on's, after 340 your in for a rebuild, rebuilding RB's is DAMM expencive... One could almost build 2 400kw SR20's for the price of one 450kw RB

Which is the easiest to drive out of the 3? SR20, it has enough torque to be very quick but not as much as the RB which usualy = toasted tires not speed.

[Riekert]

interesting read.... hehe

[Doctor G]

Are you talking flywheel or wheel kw??

some costs for a basic rebuild on the two motors below:

RB25DET / SR20DET
OEM OIL PUMP - 1600 / 2500
WATER PUMP - N1 PUMP 1500 / OEM 600
OEM GASKET SET - 1400 / 1400
EX MANI GASKETS - 300 / 230

When moving to a built motor, All the other parts, pistons, rods, arp's, manifolds, turbos etc are farily similarly priced. The RB stuff is sometimes between 10 and 30% more, as it's 6 cylinder vs 4 cylinder. So I don't see how the built RB can cost 2x the sr20 build.

But, AFAIK the rb can take around 450-500hp on stock internals, where the sr obviously cant. By then the SR needs forged internals, arp's, bigger injectors etc. - all very expensive bits. Most people don't go over this power level anyways, so does it not make more sense to use the motor that can achieve this with the least expenses?

The RB needs custom mounts to fit yes, but the SR will probably get nismo mounts as well to hold the power, again, nearly cancels out.

Also, the motor and box sets for the rb and sr cost nearly the same price - in fact, lately the sr is costing more than a rb. Common factors like management systems can be ignored. So please convince me why I should go sr instead of rb, as I'm not convinced just yet.

ps: Why is there a rb in your s14 and not a sr?

[RAW]

My god,,, and again, Bud, you should learn that arguing somthing you actualy dont know about isnt a good idea.

ps: Why is there a rb in your s14 and not a sr?

because making 800hp out of a SR20 is not very easy.

RB25DET / SR20DET
OEM OIL PUMP - 1600 / 2500
WATER PUMP - N1 PUMP 1500 / OEM 600
OEM GASKET SET - 1400 / 1400
EX MANI GASKETS - 300 / 230

In real life.
Oil pump $300 (non N1) / $225
Water $261 N1 / $75
Gaskets $250 / $225
Mani gasket $42 / $26

I could add another $500 onto that pretty easy on what the RB would need to make 400kw reliably than the SR would need (excluding pistons, rods ectr)

The RB needs custom mounts to fit yes, but the SR will probably get nismo mounts as well to hold the power, again, nearly cancels out.

You dont think there is a difference in engine mount brakets and engine mounts? RB will still need nismo mounts PLUS brackets.

But, AFAIK the rb can take around 450-500hp on stock internals, where the sr obviously cant. By then the SR needs forged internals, arp's, bigger injectors etc. - all very expensive bits. Most people don't go over this power level anyways, so does it not make more sense to use the motor that can achieve this with the least expenses?

You think the RB will make 450-500hp on its stock injectors, stock exhaust manifold, stock intake manifold, stock turbo ectr? plus the added investment of actualy swapping to the RB? take that money and put it into SR20 and SR20 is more powerful and more reliable than running that RB to the ragged edge

When moving to a built motor, All the other parts, pistons, rods, arp's, manifolds, turbos etc are farily similarly priced. The RB stuff is sometimes between 10 and 30% more, as it's 6 cylinder vs 4 cylinder. So I don't see how the built RB can cost 2x the sr20 build.

And you dont think that RB parts are also more expencive because they far more rare and because there is a lot of things that have to get done to an RB when rebuilding it, things you dont need to worry about on SR20's because they are adequate... things if youve ever built one you would know about?

RB swap done right requires custom mounts and custome isolators, it also requires custom cross member, custom rear transmission brace, custom lower wiring harness, custom power steering lines, custom drive shaft, hard core radiator, different radiator hoses, electric fans, cut front apron ectr, if you want it to access your stock cluster you have to have it reworked or run a signal modifier... The list carries on..

Anything else doc? am I missing any of your questions? or maybe there is somone here that actualy has experience in all 3 of these engines that would like to chip their 2c in?

P.s. have you built your CA18 yet?

[Doctor G]

My god,,, and again, Bud, you should learn that arguing somthing you actualy dont know about isnt a good idea.

ps: Why is there a rb in your s14 and not a sr?

because making 800hp out of a SR20 is not very easy.

RB25DET / SR20DET
OEM OIL PUMP - 1600 / 2500
WATER PUMP - N1 PUMP 1500 / OEM 600
OEM GASKET SET - 1400 / 1400
EX MANI GASKETS - 300 / 230

In real life.
Oil pump $300 (non N1) / $225
Water $261 N1 / $75
Gaskets $250 / $225
Mani gasket $42 / $26

I could add another $500 onto that pretty easy on what the RB would need to make 400kw reliably than the SR would need (excluding pistons, rods ectr)

The RB needs custom mounts to fit yes, but the SR will probably get nismo mounts as well to hold the power, again, nearly cancels out.

You dont think there is a difference in engine mount brakets and engine mounts? RB will still need nismo mounts PLUS brackets.

But, AFAIK the rb can take around 450-500hp on stock internals, where the sr obviously cant. By then the SR needs forged internals, arp's, bigger injectors etc. - all very expensive bits. Most people don't go over this power level anyways, so does it not make more sense to use the motor that can achieve this with the least expenses?

You think the RB will make 450-500hp on its stock injectors, stock exhaust manifold, stock intake manifold, stock turbo ectr? plus the added investment of actualy swapping to the RB? take that money and put it into SR20 and SR20 is more powerful and more reliable than running that RB to the ragged edge

When moving to a built motor, All the other parts, pistons, rods, arp's, manifolds, turbos etc are farily similarly priced. The RB stuff is sometimes between 10 and 30% more, as it's 6 cylinder vs 4 cylinder. So I don't see how the built RB can cost 2x the sr20 build.

And you dont think that RB parts are also more expencive because they far more rare and because there is a lot of things that have to get done to an RB when rebuilding it, things you dont need to worry about on SR20's because they are adequate... things if youve ever built one you would know about?

RB swap done right requires custom mounts and custome isolators, it also requires custom cross member, custom rear transmission brace, custom lower wiring harness, custom power steering lines, custom drive shaft, hard core radiator, different radiator hoses, electric fans, cut front apron ectr, if you want it to access your stock cluster you have to have it reworked or run a signal modifier... The list carries on..

Anything else doc? am I missing any of your questions? or maybe there is somone here that actualy has experience in all 3 of these engines that would like to chip their 2c in?

P.s. have you built your CA18 yet?

The prices I put down are firm. Ex shipping, but again, both motors' parts will require shipping.

Most s13 owners will have a ca18det. So the cost of the rb swap can be ignored, as the SR also has swapping costs. With a rb bellhousing the ca box can be retained. So no custom drive shaft.

As for the mountings. The RB mounts for s-chasis come in urethane, so no need for brackets and mounts. Also, no need for skyline cross member. The gearbox brackets can be easily fabbed up.

You're making it sound like the sr20 is better engineered than the rb....

And yes the rb can probably see 400hp on stock exhaust manifold, intake manifold. But those 2 items are not expensive anyways. Bigger turbo and injectors yes.

[RAW]

LOL, yes sure, those prices must be firm Ill send my next RB customer to you to get them... you must have some magic contacts.

Most s13 owners will have a ca18det. So the cost of the rb swap can be ignored, as the SR also has swapping costs. With a rb bellhousing the ca box can be retained. So no custom drive shaft.

Are you smoking crack? SR20 drops straight into a CA bay, not one mount gets changed and near all the other stuff doesnt need to get changed,,, the CA18 box is even worse than the SR20's and your going to try run RB25 torque threw it? bud, an RB25 would snap your gearbox into match sticks just with some added boost let alone a decent turbo... Hell I even use RB box's on my SR20's because the SR20 boxes are so kak...

As for the mountings. The RB mounts for s-chasis come in urethane, so no need for brackets and mounts. Also, no need for skyline cross member. The gearbox brackets can be easily fabbed up.

Are those mounts -8cm tall? please show the forum these amazing height deminishing mounts you talk about, last time I checked, unless you drop the motor down it wont clear the bonnet... well unless you go getto and space it all out? again I think you dont understand the difference between engine mounts and engine brackets....

You're making it sound like the sr20 is better engineered than the rb....

Nope, what I am saying is its a lot more expencive.

And yes the rb can probably see 400hp on stock exhaust manifold, intake manifold. But those 2 items are not expensive anyways. Bigger turbo and injectors yes.

Can and probably? 400 yes, 450-500 (as i stated) yes if you want to blow it up. And please show me how a intake manifold that doesnt leak and exhaust manifold that wont crack is cheap? this is coming from somone who is going to cheap on the most CRITICAL part of his CA18 by using the crappest head gaskets on the market to save R600

We can carry this on all day...

[Riekert]

We can carry this on all day...

and nite....


ok through all the interesting comments I actually learned something.

If you want to do something don't let anyone tell you otherwise. you may be wrong you may be right. But if you F#@k up you can only blame yourself....

[Doctor G]

LOL, yes sure, those prices must be firm Ill send my next RB customer to you to get them... you must have some magic contacts.

Took me less than 10 minutes to find those parts. Google is a wonderful thing isn't it?? Heck if you asked me nicely I'd even pm you the link. Or maybe my s-chassis is too slow for the info to be useful - right?

Are you smoking crack?

Let's not start with the remarks again alright...

SR20 drops straight into a CA bay, not one mount gets changed and near all the other stuff doesnt need to get changed,,, the CA18 box is even worse than the SR20's and your going to try run RB25 torque threw it? bud, an RB25 would snap your gearbox into match sticks just with some added boost let alone a decent turbo... Hell I even use RB box's on my SR20's because the SR20 boxes are so kak...

I was not only talking about mounts here. I was responding to your post saying that for the price of a 400hp RB25, you can have a SR20 with the same power.

The point I'm making is that the SR20 isn't FREE. The CA owner still has to lay out the money to convert from CA to SR. Then still spend (a lot of)money (probably on internals) to get the SR to the same power that the RB will make with just bigger injectors and higher boost, or bigger turbo.

Are those mounts -8cm tall? please show the forum these amazing height deminishing mounts you talk about, last time I checked, unless you drop the motor down it wont clear the bonnet... well unless you go getto and space it all out? again I think you dont understand the difference between engine mounts and engine brackets....

http://phase2motorsports.stores.yahoo.n ... okitf.html

Pricey yes, but this includes custom drive shaft as well. The mounts serve both as engine mounts, and at the same time locate the engine appropriately.

If you wanna use a RB cross member, then these are a good choice:

http://www.sykoperformance.com/prod01.htm

this is coming from somone who is going to cheap on the most CRITICAL part of his CA18 by using the crappest head gaskets on the market to save R600

Uhm who exactly are you referring to here???

We can carry this on all day...

Apparently

[Riekert]

I love this thread!!

[rat]

I love this thread!!

you have to add your 2c to this dont you?