Project D - 1 DEC 2007

Phinx · Post by **Phinx** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:53 pm

VL@DE...

I think I know what happened. The turbo didn't fail. I purchased a Tubular manifold the same one you have. And some times with these manifold a weld splatter comes loose and flys into you Turbo.

When I checked my manifold I came across a weld splatter that would break off after enough heat cycles

The Calibrator · Post by **The Calibrator** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:43 pm

The turbo didn't fail.

Thats strange seeing as the motor is full of bits of turbine impeller. Yes its definitely possible that a piece of weld damaged the turbine wheel however for whatever reason the impeller broke up and destroyed the motor.

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:59 pm

So the compressor killed the motor, not the turbine? Ouch...

The Calibrator · Post by **The Calibrator** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 6:29 am

No the turbine killed the motor.

Phinx · Post by **Phinx** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:08 am

I was thinking a bit of weld splatter broke off , the one i removed from my manifold was pretty big went through the exhaust wheel made it unbalanced and it broke off..

And reversion sucked it all back into the combustion chambers.

Vlade · Post by **Vlade** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:20 am

Well it puts it into perspective

I'll go over the manifold decently before we put it in, I didn't do it the first time round, I did look down it though, but it wasn't good enough.

Small Update - the new parts are ordered and on there way!

I must send my lazy ass over to Duane's shop so I can fix the ABS bracket, need to have a bonnet on when the new engine goes in!

Rezlo · Post by **Rezlo** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:37 pm

Vlade wrote:Once bitten twice shy! Well with unbranded products.

Explain how this had anything to do with somthing I sold you?

Not that it means much, but ive used and sold over 200 of these manifolds on/for CA18, SR20, RB25, RB26 and B and D series honda's for over 3 years, I have never ever had one have slag inside it, they run flexible hones thew them (if you actualy look inside before installing) so the chances of any slag coming loose is slim to nothing.

Besides, with the way your car was running when the ecu was being trouble shooted with it miss firing and running on 2 cyl will dammage a turbo far faster than you could imagine.

Is a pitty though, your set up should have been wild

next time read the little page that comes with the CP's on how to gap your rings, even if somthing didnt dammage the turbo, that motor never would have lasted for more than a few weeks till ring bind killed it.

But as with everything, we all learn from our mistakes, and it can only get better from here right?

Vlade · Post by **Vlade** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:00 am

Ja Meneer... Your sarcasm is not the least bit appreciated. You are like the Verimark adds on TV... All sounds blerry good but its hard to believe.

Look I admit I made the mistake with the piston ring gaps that is plain in-experience right there. So don't be sarcastic and tell me to read the little paper I did that but understanding what they meant is where the in-experience laid.

I'm not sure what you mean by the ECU problems, that is most definitely not the cause. My car started misfiring way after I started hearing the noises not before, as mentioned it ran like a stallion for 80km.
The cause of the problem is that my turbo was damaged by some object(s), where that object(s) originated is really hard to determine, but the most likely culprit is the tubular manifold... There is no clear indication that it originated from anywhere else, Phinx's post actually brought the missing pieces of the puzzle together, I'm not saying it is the cause but nor am I denying the fact that is the most probable cause.

I know you will post back with some other Verimark like story... blah blah... I can honestly do not care, my experiences with some of your products tell a different story, and from rumors going around I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE. Mine was just way more catastrophic, and its here in the public eye.

Rezlo · Post by **Rezlo** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:37 am

I wasnt being sarcastic, My first engine i built I didnt gap the rings either, every body makes mistakes... and everybody learns from mistakes...

Please guys, if you have a problem with one of my products tell me!!! how am I as a supplier supposed to recify things or upgrade products if I dont get told? This is the 1st case im hearing of this, so please if you have a problem tell me or tell everyone and email me a link, either way if there is a problem it must be addressed not so? To date the only problem I know of with any of my manifolds is the ABS clearance on certain CA18 motors, Nissan changed the mounting bracket on some of the UK import bodies but not all of them, and I prewarned all of my CA18 customers for this before they baught it, including yourself.

Its funny, if i baught somthing and it caused a problem or be suspected to cause a problem i would be at my PC in a FLASH sending the supplier an email saying WTF. Maybe im the only one, I for sure would have at least made contact with the supplier to tell them about the problem.

Again, im sorry about your dammage, it would have been a potent setup.

Vlade · Post by **Vlade** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:34 am

Rezlo wrote: I wasn't being sarcastic, My first engine i built I didnt gap the rings either, every body makes mistakes... and everybody learns from mistakes...

Ja like Duane said school fees. Sorry if came across with a temper, the whole thing got fired up a bit.

The ABS thing is not an issue, I knew that was coming long time.

The thing about notifying you if something had/caused a problem: I mailed you about my oil cooler lines, remember I told you the crimped bit started leaking. You told me to just take it to a hydraulic place and let them re-crimp it.

The way the message came across wasn't very comforting, to put it bluntly its nearly like you said "its impossible that it can leak, I sold 100's, I run one on my RB, none had problems, the leak is your fault". So I had the connection re-crimped, I arrived at Duane's shop with the car, and another one started leaking. I figured by the previous email that you made your sale and weren't prepared to help me with any after sales service.

When the whole manifold saga happened I was prepared to drive down to PE and bliksim you with manifold, that is who P'd off I was. The thing is Ian these stuff is mass produced, there could have been a slight chance that there was still welding splatter inside the manifold, Phinx found some, that is the most probable cause. Now that it happened it's costing me a boat load of money, money that was meant for other things, money waisted that wasn't my fault. Yes the engine would have F'd out sooner or later due to the ring gaps, but at least it wouldn't have been one of your products that caused the engine to fail.

Now just for kicks.. Lets say for a fact it was the manifold that caused the engine failure what will you do about it?

Rezlo · Post by **Rezlo** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:51 am

Phinx doesnt have one of my manifolds, not that i sold to him anyways (unless im loosing my marbles) And Phinx, a turbo motors valve overlap would never enable somthing to get sucked backwards from the turbo all the way into the motor, unless your cam timing was TOTALY out.

HKS had a problem with slag about 2 years ago with one of their toyota manifolds, caused over 100 turbo's to pop, thing is, it hits the turbine, turbine throws the turbo out of ballance, it eats itself and you have no boost. The chances of any of that compressor wheel getting threw the intercooler in the 1 to 2 seconds it takes the turbo to destroy its self and not make boost is INCREADIBLY slim. Think about what ive just said logicaly, and read up on people having turbo's fail, it normaly never makes it threw the intercooler before it doesnt have the ability to actualy make boost and get it threw the intercooler.

Honestly i would say you had a bit of slag from your cold pipe or from where they welded your blow off valve flange on, also you mention somthing about a valve guide cracking, all these things are 100 times more likely to have caused the dammage than a peice of slag in the manifold. If it was you should have bits of compressor wheel all over you intercooler's hot side and cold side, but for it to actualy make it up the pipe to the intake manifold without boost being able to help it is near impossible, especialy on a low boost/pressure turbo like the T28's

If it was the manifold's fault which it may well have been, there isnt much I can do, but what I would do is give you a refund and from that point inspect every single unit I have in stock, and inspect every unit I have come in. Honestly I always give them a good one over whent hey arrive to make sure the welding is up to scratch and there are no obvious problems, but i cant be expected to use a boroscope to inspect every one if ive never had a problem with them.

With the oil line, again, ive never had one leak/i have never had anyone tell me it leaks, when you phoned i said have a hydro company recrimp, if i had known you had further problems I would have sent you a new set, im not here to just make money, Rezlo.com is a hobby not a living, and i am unfortunaly one of those types of people that might not come off very friendly but im always here to help, if I had known it was more than just a simple recrimp I would have given you a new set, I havent got rezlo.com to where it is without advertising by giving bad service and rubbish parts, I would like to think it is where it is due to the opposite, maybe im wrong.

Again, im sorry for all the kak your having, and i dont want to try cover my ass, but honestly I think you must go inspect your intercooler REAL hard to check to see if compresor bits actualy got threw the intercooler, because thats the only way it would have got into your engine.

I have now discontinued all of my turbo manifolds...

Cheers

Phinx · Post by **Phinx** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:05 pm

Shit ...

Sorry about the trouble Ian ...
Maybe my theory is totally wrong , Sorry about the trouble

The Calibrator · Post by **The Calibrator** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:01 pm

There seems to be a cosistent misunderstanding about the problem here.

THE TURBINE wheel broke please read it again TURBINE. The compressor side is perfect.
Now I am sure all the experts know that there is a vacuum in the exhaust manifold on the overrun this of cause would have allowed the bits of TURBINE impeller to get sucked back through the exhaust manifold into the cylinders.

Now before all the "internet experts" shoot me down let me explain this.

When you shut the throttle there is a vacuum in the intake manifold and the cylinders look at your boost gauge if you dont believe this.

Now when you have a vacuum in the cylinder and the exhaust valve opens do you not think it tries to suck air back in through the exhaust? Now of course the TURBINE impeller is a restriction stopping the free flow of air through the exhaust thus intensifying the vacuum in the exhaust manifold.

Hey presto bits of TURBINE impeller dancing a jig with the pistons.

Rezlo · Post by **Rezlo** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:45 am

Duane, ive probably seen over 200 turbo's 1st hand pop the turbine wheel with the kids over boosting the stock T25 and T28's in the US, not once have I ever seen it get sucked back, with a turbo motors valve overlap or the lack there of there is no ways the stock cams will allow this.

Maybe if the engine had wild cams or the car was a NA converted to a FI and still had NA cams this would be possible,

On the exhaust stroke its blowing the air out of the motor with the exhaust valve open, that exhaust valve is closed before the intake valve opens to start sucking the air from the intake in, even if the intake manifold is under vacuum there is no way this vacuum can cause anything to go backwards up the exhaust unless the exhaust valves are not yet closed due to cam timing being incorect or a case of HUGE cams, but even with huge cams the velosity of the air moving in the exhaust will usualy overcome the vacuum in the intake manifold, which is one of the reasons racing cars have a critical figure of valve overlap to actualy help draw freash air into the motor.

Now when you have a vacuum in the cylinder and the exhaust valve opens do you not think it tries to suck air back in through the exhaust? Now of course the TURBINE impeller is a restriction stopping the free flow of air through the exhaust thus intensifying the vacuum in the exhaust manifold

So how does the engine suck in freash air/fuel if the combustion chamber is now full of exhaust fumes? and even if there was a slight vacuum AS the valve opened it would not be for more than 1 maybe 2 degrees for crank rotation, there is no way there would be enough velosity to suck a bit of metal all the way up the turbine manifold in 1 or 2 degree's of crank rotation, which at idle is such a small number 1.1mili seconds i think, which means at an everage runner length of say 30cm it would need to be traveling around the 5000kph to make it up the manifold and threw the valve opening.

Doesnt make sence to me.. maybe somone can draw me a picture? also why does a turbo not come to a stop when you are de-accelorating? if there is vacuum in the exhaust manifold the turbo would come to a stop and actualy spin backwards....

Vlade · Post by **Vlade** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:45 pm

* Vlade scratches his head - while staring at a head with an turbine blade stuck to it *

To be honest it sounded like bull twang to me when Duane first mentioned it... It made sense but goes against what I have learned... I saw the evidence first hand, I believe what my eyes can see...

http://www.yawpower.com/febtech.html
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/february05/nerds/
http://www.engineceramics.com/coating_exhaust.htm
http://www.sxoc.co.uk/vbb/showthread.ph ... ost1509570

The articles above might not quote turbo reversion directly, but what it does quote is that exists, its a common phenomenon... and it especially happens at low RPM... and that my friends is exactly when I heard the noises that I heard, especially when letting go of the throttle and letting the engine coast down.

* Vlade's PC is blurring with: Metallica - FUEL *