Bigger turbo means lean mixture?

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Post by POWDER »

Grobblere wrote:Hi powder

Sorry but i will have to disagree with you about the .5 bar theory. Remember that's just the pressure and does not amount to the total flow.

A T2.5 vs T3/4 @ .5 boost cant even be compared to each other.

Look at it this way you have a 5mm pipe that flows at .5 bar boost, and a 10mm pipe flowing at .5 boost, the 10mm pipe "should" will deliver allot more cfm
POWDER wrote:The compensation of diffirent type of airflow vs. Timing I could possibly see causing some issue though, but don't know enough about timing to say for sure
Let me see though if I can get u to agree (which I probably will do) and confuse everyone else. (But will do so when I have access to my laptop and not typing on my blackberry)..... To be continued.....
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Post by POWDER »

Continuing, finally got my laptop here now.....

:!: (And by the way, this is not to say who's wrong and right, just a lot of people have misconceptions about the subject) :wink:

If there was no Air Flow regulation in the system you would be perfectly correct with the CFM notion and it would also surpass 0.5bar, but in this event there is air flow regulation by the Actuator or External Waste Gate.

I maintain 0.5 bar bar boost is still 0.5 bar boost, the Intake and boost pipes have also not changed size which means the capacity of the 10mm pipe has not changed.

a change in turbo size can not change 0.5 bar sissy boost into 0.5 bar super boost, the difference in turbo size only means that the T3/T4 has the ability to create a higher level of boost than the T25 and further more, an increased ability to maintain the boost, making the ability to maintain boost, the only functional factor in a regulated system.

The boost after the turbo is then maintained by the waste gate to remain at no higher level than 0.5 bar boost, the only time this would go beyond 0.5, is if you have a boost spike caused by actuator reaction time and or if the actuator vent is not of a sufficient size to release enough pressure quickly enough to prevent it.

That is why I say 0.5 bar boost is 0.5 bar boost.... So no, it can in actual fact not cause super boosting unless the actuator of what ever type you are using, fails or is over exerted.

As well, even on 5mm pipe vs 10mm pipe, 0.5 is still 0.5, the difference here is the rate of air usage coming out, obviously the piping restricts the air flow rate, but still will not make ANY change to the fact that there is still a regulated 0.5 bar boost. Only difference is that the T25 will have much less lag than the T3/T4, and probably not maintain the 0.5 bar pressure reliably all through the rev range, where as the T3/T4 will have more lag but will be able to maintain a reliable 0.5 bar ALL the way through.

This now is where the CFM comes in, the CFM rate is the turbo's ability to ACHIEVE & MAINTAIN the boost level or regulated boost level, the size of the pipes dictate how much lag you would have, as well as max flow rate between two point (Amount of Restriction between both ends to effectively do their jobs), but this will still not and can not change 0.5 bar boost into 0.5 bar super boost, pressure is absolute, not variable.

An ECU is designed to supply (So much) fuel to 0.5 bar boost, and that is why, if your ECU is mapped to 0.5 bar boost, and remains at 0.5 bar boost because that is what your actuator or waste gate has been set to, it will not effect your AFR, only your response time, in other words your lag.
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Post by 300sx »

dunno why you want to blame the turbo.. to me it seems much more likely that if the car was running reasonably before turbo change, and now it does not, that something got screwed up in the process of changing the turbo.. wireing harnass damaged, maf damaged, yada yada..
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Post by Draco »

300sx wrote:dunno why you want to blame the turbo.. to me it seems much more likely that if the car was running reasonably before turbo change, and now it does not, that something got screwed up in the process of changing the turbo.. wireing harnass damaged, maf damaged, yada yada..
I am not blaming anything....I am trying to make sense of why the car is so heavily over fueling, if wiring was damaged...why over fuel instaed of underfuel...the car runs perfect on idle when it's hot....only when you start driving with some throttle does it blow out clowds of black smoke.

As I said in my first post, there was a wire that got damaged to the CAS with the install...but I am not sure whether it was already damaged before the install, now it is fixed...so that might then cause the overfueling :?

Very simple question....if it had nothing to do with the wiring...bigger turbo should have meant the old map should be lean not rich...so eliminating the wire issue....does that mean the turbo does not flow as much as the preveous one and because of the lack of air...there is to much fuel :?

If the engine missed and spitted and struggeled....thats one thing...but over fuel....that has me thinking why>>>
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Post by rat »

Draco i agree with your thinking that it should be lean.
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Post by Draco »

rat wrote:Draco i agree with your thinking that it should be lean.
Break thrue!!!!!!!! I thought I was typing in Korean :oops:

It makes sense that it should be lean....
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Post by rat »

The turbo will flow more over 1 bar. The T28 is designed with under a bar in mind.
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Post by Draco »

rat wrote:The turbo will flow more over 1 bar. The T28 is designed with under a bar in mind.
Remember the T28 has a AR60 compressor housing...thats bigger than a normal T28...the new turbo is also an AR60, phisicly the same size as the T28 compressor housing....obveously the compressor wheel differs.
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Post by Gary57 »

All this talk of boost pressure is daffed.

Powder 0.5bar boost does not mean it flows the same mass of air as 0.5bar in another application. You are only thinking about pressure and not tempreture. A bigger turbo will flow 0.5bar boost easier so the air should be cooler which mean more mass. Remember boost is only a measure of the engines inablity to swallow the air the turbo is supplying.

Now Draco I agree in theory yes you are right it should be leaner but it doesnt always work out that way. Get the car tuned again and put on dyno and then see if you have made any improvements or you have made it worse.

Maybe your new exhaust manifold is the problem...
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Post by Draco »

Gary57 wrote: Maybe your new exhaust manifold is the problem...
I will get to the tuning as i did before, just wondering why...

Why do you think it might be the manifold? Do you think it flows worse than the other one?
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Post by Gary57 »

I cant say it is the manifold because I havent seen it but maybe it is restricting the motor...
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Post by Draco »

Gary57 wrote:I cant say it is the manifold because I havent seen it but maybe it is restricting the motor...
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Post by POWDER »

Gary57 wrote:All this talk of boost pressure is daffed.

Powder 0.5bar boost does not mean it flows the same mass of air as 0.5bar in another application. You are only thinking about pressure and not tempreture. A bigger turbo will flow 0.5bar boost easier so the air should be cooler which mean more mass. Remember boost is only a measure of the engines inablity to swallow the air the turbo is supplying.

Now Draco I agree in theory yes you are right it should be leaner but it doesnt always work out that way. Get the car tuned again and put on dyno and then see if you have made any improvements or you have made it worse.

Maybe your new exhaust manifold is the problem...
Hi Gary, this now not being to argue, but rather to understand ur thought pattern,

I fully agree that a change in manifold can definately cause a diffirence in performance, taking into account possible easier flow or more restricted flow, but not change in turbo, unless there has been a change in flow regulation, and fuel mapping is off, this type of thing u see with MAF sensors when introducing atmospheric bov's that will cause overfueling, and even then not to this degree that it smokes.

What you are proposing would be the diffirence between a cold and hot day, does ur car smoke on a hot day or cold day? Or even the diffirence of driving in JHB compared to the coast, which is a diffirence that a MAP sensor recognises as the name indicates (Manifold Absolute Pressure) which is the Absolute pressure in your manifold at any given time. I mean in this case we would be talking about changing air density from like 14.7 (example) ot like 11 or so...

A change in impellor size or housing size would mean a change in compression rate sure, but it is still regulated by the wastegate down to 0.5 or 1 or what ever ur std boost level is set too. The rate at what ur cylinders can swallow air has not changed

I don't know, maybe I am highly confused, but that is how I see it, if I am somehow wrong, please show me to a airpressure for dummies guide I can study, I know for one, that is a subject I would appreciate to know backwards.....
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Post by djtreble »

I'm not going to get into any arguments but 0.5 bar is still 0.5 bar, this is the reason you can run a T28 at the same boost as a T25 on a standard map without problems. But what's the point of that?

As for the overfueling, I would look elsewhere (ie. not the turbo) if it is deffinately running the same boost. I'm not sure what other mods you have so take it to the dyno and get it checked out with a wideband. It could be that the standard management is trying to compensate and is over-doing it as the boost characteristics are different from the T25, but still the same boost.

Tell me, is the car smoking throughout the rev range, only on boost, on WOT, on light acceleration, etc?
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Post by Draco »

When it's cold it already starts in negative boost when driving, when warm, idle settles and on light throttle not in boost no smoke..as soon as you get close to boost and into boost it starts blowing black/dark smoke...heavily...the more throttle you give the more it blows smoke.

It is obveous that I need to retune because it's obveously over feulling, I just wonder why because it should be underfeuling with the "bigger" turbo.
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