Pintle of injector

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:42 pm

WOW what do you know......sometimes if you walk the less traveled path you learn something, something that everybody said can not happen or is impossible.....not recommended.....

I thaught the injector would inject less atomized fuel, quite the oppisite is happening.............

I have pics, will download it on monday.....

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:34 am

It seems it is better to test something and see for yourself, sometimes the people that know better is not always right, it sometimes pays off to try and do the impossible.

Often reading things on the net and listening to pro's are based on opinion and hearsay....instead of tested facts....it is not tested because when a pintle is broken off the injector is deemed unuseble, no one tested it to really see what the result is.

The saying comes to mind that says "think outside the box"

these are pics of 2 different size injectors where the pintle has been broken off.

As you can see it atomizes even more than the normal, now again, as in preveous pics I loaded they say this pattern is not the best, it must be more of a streamy type, although the net in general says the more the fuel is atomized the better it is carried to the combustion chamber for better combustion....

I think my logic tells me it makes sence that my combustion will be slightly better because of slightly better atomization.

There is only one thing I need to test before I will be totally satisfied, I want to test the flow of 2 of the same size injectors flow rate, I already found that it flows more, but will the broken pintle that regulates the flow to the specified rate now introduce different floe rates on the same size injectors.

I should have tested this aswell on saturday but I was so overwhelmed with my findings I did not ask the next question....I will post as soon as this is tested....

Pinkfluffybunnys · Post by **Pinkfluffybunnys** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:21 am

I honestly don’t believe your findings; It doesn’t make any sense to me how a streamed pulse of fuel slamming into a valve or head will have better atomization then a normal pintel cone spray that’s already atomized the fuel and its getting dragged into the combustion chamber by the whole air stream swirling and mixing in the process.Also will the stream be consistent all the time even when pulsed? I have had my injectors on those same machines with some of the big boys in the drag racing busting my b@lls because one injector did not clean nicely and was streaming a little and they said I should swap it out.

I am a modifier by nature, I have pushed the envelope on all my stuff from computers to cars , But that pintel piece is there to atomize the fuel removing it and thinking you know better then denso, bosch, Siemans and all the big names is just crazy, I know you don’t have the cash for the correct stuff but your lining yourself up for pain down the road, I know I have done it before but its your car, the car will run with these injectors and it will boost , It will also feel stronger because its been rebuilt but without the correct atomized fuel its going to det and return bad fuel economy.

Anyway I have said my say , I know we have never see eye to eye over stuff so the post was not an attach, I’m just wording my concern

RB25SX · Post by **RB25SX** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:24 am

Pinkfluffybunnys wrote: “IF” RB25SX take my injectors or some one else’s and converts over I’m sure he will sell the fuel rail and the RB25 injectors are high imp also the SR injectors are high imp

I can sell my RB25DET injectors if you are interested. 6 x 370cc side feed, very good condition.

Pinkfluffybunnys · Post by **Pinkfluffybunnys** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:28 am

Cool

Stuffs working out man, You now have acccess to 6 high imp injectors now its just the fuel rail

Does your car have the barb type injector?

http://www.redz31.net/pages/fuel/fuel.injectors.html

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:29 am

You don't believe it, thats ok, I don't need you to believe what I saw with my own eyes, I am the one sitting with a problem and I was forced to do what I can with what I got,I tested something and found something different than everybody said, does this mean I know better than Bosch and such and such....NO....I never claimed that I did, I claimed that I found something that pro's said the oppisite would happen.

In the end you and everybody else can say whatever, I will use it if all the spray patterns are the same according to my eyes, I will use it if the flow of all the injectors are the same within acceptible boundaries.

With all means, if there is no problems with your injectors, why would you need to ask questions and solve problems.

Lets not try and ball each other, your engine will fail again at some stage, as will mine.

I proved to myself that I should find answers for myself, not relying on others, I did.....

Also will the stream be consistent all the time even when pulsed?

yes it will, A pulse is measured in ms's, ms's is time measured for each pulse, the longer the pulse(ms's) the longer the injector injects, altering the flow rate, I would emagine if the fuel pressure dropped to very low it would alter the pattern, as it will any injector.

The question begs, have anybody tested what any injectors pattern does with different ms's.....I will test mine on different ms's....and different pressures....but my logic tells me that if I take a hose pipe and adjust the nozzel, the pattern stays the same unless the pressure is altered to a very extreme low level.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:33 am

RB25SX wrote:
Pinkfluffybunnys wrote: “IF” RB25SX take my injectors or some one else’s and converts over I’m sure he will sell the fuel rail and the RB25 injectors are high imp also the SR injectors are high imp
I can sell my RB25DET injectors if you are interested. 6 x 370cc side feed, very good condition.

Thanks but there is a bit of a snag, by trying to solve my problems I found that the SR20 and RB injectors are the same and does not fit my rail......

I have tried all avenues before I started testing the pintle thing....

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:26 pm

Pinkfluffybunnys wrote: the car will run with these injectors and it will boost , It will also feel stronger because its been rebuilt but without the correct atomized fuel its going to det and return bad fuel economy.

I am not sure I am understanding you right, you speak of rebuilt....the engine has not been rebuilt, I replaced head gasgets....and by saying the incorrect atomized fuel will cause detonation and bad fuel economy.....I would agree with you on fuel economy if it was just one straight jet of fuel, about the detonation....it's as easy as I don't know....there is no info to back that up.

My finding which you don't believe is that the fuel atomizes more, that tells me economy will be better and it can be tuned so that detonation does not accur like normal.

Are you saying that because it is atomizing more it is also gonna cause detonation and bad economy...?

What facts is that based on?

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:39 pm

Pinkfluffybunnys wrote:Does your car have the barb type injector?

http://www.redz31.net/pages/fuel/fuel.injectors.html

No, it has the side feed injector rail, 3 on a side, the Z I have has a different intake manifold than the other models, I have the maxima intake manifold and plenum, if I want to use top feed, I have to find another intake manifold.....and plenum.....

Here is pics of my intake plenum....

It is the same as the 93-94 maxima intakes....no space between plenum and manifold for top feed.

ChemCool · Post by **ChemCool** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:44 pm

I must say, I really find this thread interesting.
Chem

ChemCool · Post by **ChemCool** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:54 pm

I wanted to say, that in the end, it is Draco that learns something. And that learning process is always an added value to someone. Even tho it is a negative or positive outcome. We learn from these things, and you learn by trying yourself. That is why we as men, like to take stuff apart and try to understand how things work.
Chem

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:00 pm

Hi Derek,

Can you post a pic of one of the broken pintle vs a fixed one?

I broke the cap off one of my E30 injectors and went an got a new one, R60 later, I thought this was replaceable on all injectors, thats why I wanted to see the pics.

I'm glad you've gone so far as to test this, but unfortunately I'm not sold yet, I think if it was that simple then the disc type injectors would still be around or more widely used, the manufacturers would have done something similar. I also think you might pick up idle issues like when people upgrade to very large injectors, it flows too much fuel even on a low pulse settings so the car floods at idle.

I also see another problem that might be specific to your setup, not sure about the stock Z31 ECU or your aftermarket, but if either is firing the injectors in batches of 2 or 3 (common on an older I6 or V6, my stock E30 management was like this) the injectors of the "other" cylinders are going to be firing at 180 or 120/240 degrees of TDC, i.e. against a closed intake valve, forming a nice puddle for when the valve opens.

But i'll wait and see what happens once you get the car together again, it will be very interesting either way, good luck.

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:14 pm

Hi Brenwin

You have the wrong idea, the pintle cap is not the issue, the pintle itself is a problem, I mistakenly broke it when I had to press it out of an old fuel rail, the pintle broke off just inside the orifice.

I then started to look for injectors again, I found these after a very long time and can't find more to replace the one.
I found alot of the same type injectors but from maximas that has a smaller flow rate, I can't use this, so I started these tests after i could not find other 370cc injectors unless I imported....and I couldn't....

I also see another problem that might be specific to your setup, not sure about the stock Z31 ECU or your aftermarket, but if either is firing the injectors in batches of 2 or 3 (common on an older I6 or V6, my stock E30 management was like this) the injectors of the "other" cylinders are going to be firing at 180 or 120/240 degrees of TDC, i.e. against a closed intake valve, forming a nice puddle for when the valve opens.

this will happen with any injector.....I am not sure if mine does the same, I just know it pulses with the distrebutor and the management sends the signal, I am sure mine is the same as most old 6 celynders but I think if it handels the setup now it should be able to do it with the rest of the injectors, I already installed the 5 370cc injectors and the one with the broken pintle, runs good but the one injector bothered me so thats where the tests started, if all goes well I will make all 6 injectors the same.

I had all the old injectors and that is what I did my tests on, braking the pintle off and testing the flow and pattern.

I have a management system, even though the idling is not such a issue for me, when all the tests is done and I am happy it has to be retuned and the idling can be looked at......as will the tuning.

As you read and saw the pics....so far so good.

PS. most big "drag" cars idle funny because of the external wastegate, not the injectors.....well the ones I know of...

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:21 pm

Why cant you use on or 2 of your old injectors? do they differ from the new ones? Sorry, havent been keeping track of your old vs new injectors

Draco · Post by **Draco** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:28 pm

The ones coming standard with the Z is 270cc, 2 of them did not flow right, I searched for a while to get the Z32's injectors.....370cc I got six but broke one as I said, the maximas run on 170cc's.