oil - your choice
Moderators: P3g4sus, Daniel, rat, Draco, Riekert
Oh.... My.... word.....!
Why Hanco? Why why why!!!
Just because you and this tuner are bum chums you take his word as the gospel? I get very upset, not when people are wrong, but when they try convince other people to do the same, and dont listen to reason!
There is a big difference between these 2 scenarios:
Scenario 1
- 007zhr: Hi Guys, Just wondering what oils everyone is using...
- HancoB: I use normal mineral oil
- The rest of the forum: thats interesting, why do you use mineral oil?
- HancoB: Because of x, y, z. <link to proof> a, b, c etc etc.
Scenario 2
- 007zhr: Hi Guys, Just wondering what oils everyone is using...
- HancoB: I use normal mineral oil
- The rest of the forum: thats interesting, why do you use mineral oil?
- HancoB: Because my tuner says its a waste, and his car is faster/more reliable than yours, and he will moer you and and and he says synthetic oil is the devil.... blah blah blah.
Granted they are a bit exaggerated, but you get my point, Scenario 1 will get met openly and nicely debated.... Scenario 2, well, I believe this entire thread is Scenario 2
Now, back to the oil. Oils have made tremensous leaps and bounds in the last 19 years since your CA was designed, mineral oils are better, but synthetic oils are even better than that!
First, lets look at oils function:
- To lubricate the engine internals, maintaining pressure for the bearings etc etc. In this regard both oils perform equally WHEN you put them into your engine, but thats not the bigger picture...
Oils get hot, in a turbo'd car they get very hot, and they dont like heat, also they get polluted by exhaust and petrol fumes from blow-by past your rings and head ventilation, this happens even on new motors, if oil didnt get polluted, then you would never need to change it! because of this pollution, oil looses its viscosity and lubrication properties, thats also why it goes black...
When oil gets very hot it solidifies and becomes sludge or in some cases even solid ceramic/graphite particles, not good... What does this have to do with Mineral oil vs. Synthetic, well synthetic has been designed to solidify at a much higher temperature, its also designed to resist absorbing petrol and carbon monoxide, which lets its last alot longer and take more punishment than a mineral counterpart, there is more too it than that, but I dont feel like typing. I'm also sure Gary knows this too but just gave Hanco a line and let him run with it...
In a nutshell, you can run your performance car on mineral oil, but you must change the oil more often (even more often than 5000kms) and take care not to push it too hard to form sludge. Synthetic can last nicely for 5000kms with punishment and is just a better oil overall
And Now, some links!!!!!
http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/lubrication.htm
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/sy ... index.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 32672.html
Why Hanco? Why why why!!!
Just because you and this tuner are bum chums you take his word as the gospel? I get very upset, not when people are wrong, but when they try convince other people to do the same, and dont listen to reason!
There is a big difference between these 2 scenarios:
Scenario 1
- 007zhr: Hi Guys, Just wondering what oils everyone is using...
- HancoB: I use normal mineral oil
- The rest of the forum: thats interesting, why do you use mineral oil?
- HancoB: Because of x, y, z. <link to proof> a, b, c etc etc.
Scenario 2
- 007zhr: Hi Guys, Just wondering what oils everyone is using...
- HancoB: I use normal mineral oil
- The rest of the forum: thats interesting, why do you use mineral oil?
- HancoB: Because my tuner says its a waste, and his car is faster/more reliable than yours, and he will moer you and and and he says synthetic oil is the devil.... blah blah blah.
Granted they are a bit exaggerated, but you get my point, Scenario 1 will get met openly and nicely debated.... Scenario 2, well, I believe this entire thread is Scenario 2
Now, back to the oil. Oils have made tremensous leaps and bounds in the last 19 years since your CA was designed, mineral oils are better, but synthetic oils are even better than that!
First, lets look at oils function:
- To lubricate the engine internals, maintaining pressure for the bearings etc etc. In this regard both oils perform equally WHEN you put them into your engine, but thats not the bigger picture...
Oils get hot, in a turbo'd car they get very hot, and they dont like heat, also they get polluted by exhaust and petrol fumes from blow-by past your rings and head ventilation, this happens even on new motors, if oil didnt get polluted, then you would never need to change it! because of this pollution, oil looses its viscosity and lubrication properties, thats also why it goes black...
When oil gets very hot it solidifies and becomes sludge or in some cases even solid ceramic/graphite particles, not good... What does this have to do with Mineral oil vs. Synthetic, well synthetic has been designed to solidify at a much higher temperature, its also designed to resist absorbing petrol and carbon monoxide, which lets its last alot longer and take more punishment than a mineral counterpart, there is more too it than that, but I dont feel like typing. I'm also sure Gary knows this too but just gave Hanco a line and let him run with it...
In a nutshell, you can run your performance car on mineral oil, but you must change the oil more often (even more often than 5000kms) and take care not to push it too hard to form sludge. Synthetic can last nicely for 5000kms with punishment and is just a better oil overall
And Now, some links!!!!!
http://www.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/lubrication.htm
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/sy ... index.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 32672.html
Captain Slow to the rescue!
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cape town drfter
- 0.1 Bar Boost
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:19 pm
- Car: S13
- Location: Pretoria
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I am sorry, but it seems that you guys are the ones trying to push your opinions down on others, you are starting to sound like typical BMW drivers saying that their cars are the best because they can referance a few articles from the net and a few papers and mags who say so....
I am not saying mineral or synthetic is the best, but just stand back and see what you are doing, everyone has the right to their opinions....whatever you believe is true is IRRELEVANT
I am not saying mineral or synthetic is the best, but just stand back and see what you are doing, everyone has the right to their opinions....whatever you believe is true is IRRELEVANT
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mario_200sx
- 200SX Maniac
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:16 am
- Car: S13
- Location: Cape Town
I agree fully with Draco here, but also I can understand when it comes to advise given. We all want the correct advise, otherwise whats the point. Gary and Hanco has got different believes about what is best, good, they all have there own opinions, but we still need to send out the right advise.
It has happend once or twice where advise was given and it was given incorrectly. That isa what we have to try and avoid.
Sokar had the right idea in mind by saying its about debating and not fighting. And giving proof to back your statements up.
I also dont know what is best for the car? All I know is when we had a racing we ran mineral oil, sold the car and the new owner popped in synthetic and 5 laps later he popped the motor. And we ran that motor for 6 seasons! The motor was also opened before we sold the car and it still looked like new inside!
So im not saying its the oil!(my dad however does say it is) The guy came to my dad and asked about running synthetic and my dad said he shoulnt, this guys mackie knew better and put in synthetic and the motor popped.
So how are we gonna solve this oil story? Cause I wana know?
It has happend once or twice where advise was given and it was given incorrectly. That isa what we have to try and avoid.
Sokar had the right idea in mind by saying its about debating and not fighting. And giving proof to back your statements up.
I also dont know what is best for the car? All I know is when we had a racing we ran mineral oil, sold the car and the new owner popped in synthetic and 5 laps later he popped the motor. And we ran that motor for 6 seasons! The motor was also opened before we sold the car and it still looked like new inside!
So im not saying its the oil!(my dad however does say it is) The guy came to my dad and asked about running synthetic and my dad said he shoulnt, this guys mackie knew better and put in synthetic and the motor popped.
So how are we gonna solve this oil story? Cause I wana know?
Rolling Thunder..........
OK guys, I'm all for debating and freedom of speech and opinions and stuff, but you cannot keep on saying mineral oil is better than synthetic, it just isnt, its been proven! many times, so many times in fact that its now common knowledge! other forums argue about WHICH synthetic to throw in as there are so many choices, not "should I use mineral or synthetic" that train sailed long ago! Open your eyes people! Fuck sakes!
The only time mineral oil should be in your car is for the first 1000kms during run in, why you ask because synthetic oils are soooo good they stop the natural bed in process of the rings etc.
Mario, I also have an answer to you about the race engine that died after swapping from mineral to synthetic, the mineral oil would have baked and put a few deposits in the gaps around bearing and valve covers etc etc, some synthetic oils have detergents that clean the motor and actually loosen these deposits, these foul bearings, block pickups etc etc, I've seen this before with my eyes, I've actually seen people use synthetic oils to clean engine parts that are caked with sludge from mineral oils!
I'm sorry, but as much as I stand for "believe what you want to believe" Hanco you are WRONG, and Draco you are deluded! Thats how strongly I feel about this! Stop hiding behind your keyboards, I'll be happy to chat to anyone about this face to face and I'll even show you the difference between the oils!
The only time mineral oil should be in your car is for the first 1000kms during run in, why you ask because synthetic oils are soooo good they stop the natural bed in process of the rings etc.
Mario, I also have an answer to you about the race engine that died after swapping from mineral to synthetic, the mineral oil would have baked and put a few deposits in the gaps around bearing and valve covers etc etc, some synthetic oils have detergents that clean the motor and actually loosen these deposits, these foul bearings, block pickups etc etc, I've seen this before with my eyes, I've actually seen people use synthetic oils to clean engine parts that are caked with sludge from mineral oils!
I'm sorry, but as much as I stand for "believe what you want to believe" Hanco you are WRONG, and Draco you are deluded! Thats how strongly I feel about this! Stop hiding behind your keyboards, I'll be happy to chat to anyone about this face to face and I'll even show you the difference between the oils!
Captain Slow to the rescue!
Mario you are missing the point. Hanco didnt say mineral oil was better than synthetic, he said it is the SAME product with a different label. Then he said that we know nothing and all our cars are always breaking, this set me on fire cause I pride myself in my car that it doesnt break.
If he said mineral oil is better, that would have been fine, I would have sat back and had a good laugh BUT he didnt.
I know cars that have run for 200 000km without a service, when we service it 50km down the road the motor seizes. That is not because the thick "grease" that we had to blow out the sump plug with air is better than the fresh oil we just put in.
If he said mineral oil is better, that would have been fine, I would have sat back and had a good laugh BUT he didnt.
I know cars that have run for 200 000km without a service, when we service it 50km down the road the motor seizes. That is not because the thick "grease" that we had to blow out the sump plug with air is better than the fresh oil we just put in.
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Guy
- 0.3 Bar Boost
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:28 am
- Car: S13
- Location: Richards Bay/ Durban
Hey guys, if you're interested in oils have a read at "Bob is the oil guy" http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm
Particularly this article on shear.
I wish could post an article out of a mag of mine by a Fuchs engineer, I can scan it if someone will host it for me.
He basically says some synthetics are not much better than good mineral oils, but what you should look for is an oil with good shear stability. Apparently an ester based synthetic is best for this and is used in jet engines.
I see why Hanco says synthetic may be a waste, a good mineral oil with the same ratings as a synthetic will be just as good over your 5000km change interval. The thing is the synthetic may last 15000km or more, whereas the mineral may need changing earlier. So if you're not extending the change interval with the synthetic, you may not be getting any advantage over a similar specification mineral based oil.
Oil life also varies with driving conditions, lots of short, barely warmed up trips will degrade an oil much faster than longer, more constant speed trips that allow the engine to get fully up to temperature.
If you guys really want to compare oils try taking two of your cars, drain the oils and send for analysis, there are companies that do this locally and its common in industry. This will give you a base point. Then fill one with synthetic, the other with mineral oil, drive them over similar conditions for 5000kms and then have the oils analysed again. The degredation of the oil and wear particles found in each should give an idea of whether one is inadequate or not. My guess is that they would both be quite similar in condition over that time.
Particularly this article on shear.
I wish could post an article out of a mag of mine by a Fuchs engineer, I can scan it if someone will host it for me.
He basically says some synthetics are not much better than good mineral oils, but what you should look for is an oil with good shear stability. Apparently an ester based synthetic is best for this and is used in jet engines.
I see why Hanco says synthetic may be a waste, a good mineral oil with the same ratings as a synthetic will be just as good over your 5000km change interval. The thing is the synthetic may last 15000km or more, whereas the mineral may need changing earlier. So if you're not extending the change interval with the synthetic, you may not be getting any advantage over a similar specification mineral based oil.
Oil life also varies with driving conditions, lots of short, barely warmed up trips will degrade an oil much faster than longer, more constant speed trips that allow the engine to get fully up to temperature.
If you guys really want to compare oils try taking two of your cars, drain the oils and send for analysis, there are companies that do this locally and its common in industry. This will give you a base point. Then fill one with synthetic, the other with mineral oil, drive them over similar conditions for 5000kms and then have the oils analysed again. The degredation of the oil and wear particles found in each should give an idea of whether one is inadequate or not. My guess is that they would both be quite similar in condition over that time.
I believe this is an old wives tale too. All new Porsches are factory filled with Mobil 1, and I'm sure they bed in alright.The only time mineral oil should be in your car is for the first 1000kms during run in, why you ask because synthetic oils are soooo good they stop the natural bed in process of the rings etc.
Last edited by Guy on Thu May 22, 2008 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Friends don't let friends drive Honda's
Sokar I am not hiding....you are starting to insult me with your comments, I have never insulted you, if you feel you want to insult me get my number from VC call me and lets meet then you insult me, I will not hide behind my key board.
Synthetic may be better but there is nothing rong using a good mineral oil.
Synthetic may be better but there is nothing rong using a good mineral oil.
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mario_200sx
- 200SX Maniac
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:16 am
- Car: S13
- Location: Cape Town
Thanx Sokar, that is a detailed explenation! Now that puts my mind to ease, I was always sceptical about running synthetic, because of what happend to the racing motor. But this clears it up.
To be honest Hanco, the proof is in the pudding when it comes to synthectic oil and it has been proved. Its still your choice buddy. I also agree that a good quality mineral oil changed at every 5000km will do the trick just as good..
Yet again, different stokes for different folks.
Gary, I dont think Hanco was ment everything he said so literally. He feels its a waste to spend so much money on synthetic oil when you can use mineral oil that is cheaper and do your regular oil changes without harming your motor.
To be honest Hanco, the proof is in the pudding when it comes to synthectic oil and it has been proved. Its still your choice buddy. I also agree that a good quality mineral oil changed at every 5000km will do the trick just as good..
Yet again, different stokes for different folks.
Gary, I dont think Hanco was ment everything he said so literally. He feels its a waste to spend so much money on synthetic oil when you can use mineral oil that is cheaper and do your regular oil changes without harming your motor.
Rolling Thunder..........
